Oh hello! James McMahon here. It's been a time! I’m currently working on season 2 of Shame, a podcast about... shame, but I thought I’d share one episode of it early, mainly because the person I’m speaking to today - the journalist Christie Smythe - is writing a book, Smirk, about her relationship with the notorious ‘pharma bro’ Martin Shkreli.

You know Martin Shkreli. Hedge fund dude. Bit of a troll. Actually, and I say this as a Wu-Tang Clan fan, a lot of a troll. Massively hiked the prices of life saving pharmaceutical drugs. Went to prison for securities fraud, though he's in a half-way house now. You know who Christie is too. You read about her in the 2020 ELLE piece 'The Journalist and the Pharma Bro'. You read it (and in the unlikely event you didn’t, you should do that now). The internet went bonkers, and you probably had opinions about it and her and Martin. Donald Trump did. And Hillary Clinton. Bernie Sanders too. But Christie – who is a very good journalist and an excellent writer, it should be said – has often been shrouded by the hysteria that surrounds Martin. And so now you can get the truth about what happened when a woman fell for – and I quote the Elle article here – ‘one of the least liked men in the world’ by subscribing for missives from Christie’s book at smirk-book.com.

I hope you enjoy this conversation. Season 2 is coming.

Shame is a Spoook Media production. Spoook is also a record label, a promoter, a shop, a Substack - it's many things. Follow us on Instagram and Twitter. And please do Like, Review and Subscribe - it actually really helps people find our podcasts!

Watch the series trailer here: https://tinyurl.com/7r326hhc

And so to the Season 1 finale of Shame!

When I started this podcast, I did it for three reasons. One, because I have my own experience with shame, and, at various points in my life, I’ve been gripped by it. This podcast was me working that out, episode to episode – and it’s helped. Meeting other people who’ve had the experience of being shamed, or who carry shame about from something that happened in their lives. It’s helped me find new perspectives – and, as my guest on this episode describes as being the 'cure' for shame – empathy for other people.

The second reason is that I'm a journalist. I’m fascinated by people and psychology and I’ve always thought that as a writer, you write – or in this case speak – about what you know. As I say, I know shame. But the third reason is this – I find this world we’re living in too cruel, too unforgiving, too siloed… and I wanted to find people who felt the same way too. My tribe so to speak. On this front, the podcast has delivered too. I’d like to take this moment to thank anyone who has appeared on the show, has left a nice review, has shared an episode or two… but most of all I’d like to thank Jon Ronson, who I’m speaking to today. 

Back in 2015, my fellow journalist Jon wrote a book that had a great effect on me. It’s called So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed. I’m a fan of Jon's work. Have been for years. And I’ve tried to follow the teachings I’ve gleaned from that work – value people over polemic, be curious of others and the world around you, pursue truth and tolerance. But that book in particular blew my head off. It might have even saved my life.

We go deep on this episode – the audio is a bit scratchy in places. Jon’s voice too, the result of a long day doing press for his new podcast series Things Fell Apart, for the BBC. As of yesterday, January 25th, that series is available to listen to wherever you get your podcasts – it comes highly recommended, and, at the time of broadcast, is the most salient thing I’ve heard on the 'culture wars' that are raging around us.

I love all the episodes of Shame to date – and don’t worry, we’ll be back with Season 2 at some point – but this one is really special to me. I’m so grateful to Jon for taking the time.

Shame is a Spoook Media production. Spoook is also a record label, a promoter, a shop, a Substack - it's many things. Follow us on Instagram and Twitter. And please do Like, Review and Subscribe - it actually really helps people find our podcasts!

Watch the series trailer here: https://tinyurl.com/7r326hhc