This interview was originally published through Audible Sessions.
Note: Text has been edited and does not match audio exactly.
Holly Newson: I'm Holly Newson. Welcome to Audible Sessions. A place where we delve into the books, careers and lives of authors and creators. Shabaz Ali, or Shabaz Says, as you might know him on social media, spends a lot of time poking fun at the super rich online. He's there to make us chuckle about those crazy expensive things belonging to unrealistically pretty people, rather than thinking that we need one or need to be one. And his book, I'm Rich, You're Poor, is your new life manual, giving advice from his online community, the Povvo Gang, whilst calling out what social media can do if we take it too seriously. In this interview, we chat about which type of fancy-rich-person ice cubes he'd be making first, what social media has done to male beauty standards and what his own Instagram feed looks like. To start with, I asked why he wanted to write this book.
Shabaz Ali: I started making these videos, these “I'm Rich, You're Poor” videos at the back of going through stuff in high school. So, I'm a teacher and some of my pupils were coming in and they had this really warped sense of the world. Relationships can't have any fights in them. You have to be going on a million holidays a year. You need to be earning money. You need to be doing all of this – really warped sense. And I thought, “Well, let me investigate it.” I fell down a rabbit hole. I went to investigate what it would feel like and then I ended up just criticizing it, and then I went from just taking the mick, because I've always done that. I was like poking fun. And then I really started to dig into it and I thought, "Oh, wouldn't it be interesting to collate this?" Because it could have just been an hour video. But I thought, “No, firstly, I wanted people to read because I'm a teacher.” I want to encourage people to read and fall in love with the book. But the main idea just came from some of the stuff I researched and learned about. I was like, “I really want to share this with other people without sounding like a lecture.” So, that's where the idea came from. Plus, there was just so much to write about. I mean, I could write three or four books.
HN: A series [laughs].
SA: Oh, God, don't put the pressure on [laughs].
HN: And what's it like to get a book quote from the head of Instagram?
SA: Blew my mind. Like, every day something new happens and I'm like, "Is that really happening?” Yeah. He followed me quite a while ago, Adam, and he was a big fan, which is really crazy because I spend the majority of the time criticizing his creators or like the platform or the internet. I think he understands what place I'm coming from and I think he wants social media to have that change as well, which is why he really gets the book. And he was so eager to read it. As soon as I sent him the intro, the quote was back within I think two or three days. He was like, "Yep." And I thought, "You are head of Instagram. Clearly you don't have enough to do if you're reading my book, but you must have loved it."
HN: Why did you first start the channel? And can you remember the moment where a video first went real big?
SA: Yes, I can. I started the channel out of boredom. I did start it because it was lockdown. I've done social media for quite a while, but I kind of fell off, on and off, because life gets in the way, there's always something, teaching or something else come up. And then lockdown, when we had nothing else to do, did we? So, I was literally like, "Okay, I'll just do the dance trends." Everybody was on Zoom calls and everybody was either, you were doing two things: You were either Zoom calling or you were dancing on TikTok. So, I was dancing on TikTok.
And then after that I just spent a lot of time in bed, and one day I just picked up my phone and I saw a video and I reacted to it. Twenty seconds. And then I went back to sleep. I went for my second nap of the day and woke up to like a million views and I thought, "Oh, wow, what's happened here?" And then it just became this thing. And the I'm Rich, You're Poor thing actually just came out of nowhere. People ask me this and I'm like, "I don't know. I don't know where I'm Rich, You're Poor came from." I just sort of had this inclination that when this person is showing what they have, they're essentially saying, “I'm Rich, You're Poor.” So, I just was like, "On today's episode of I'm Rich, You're Poor…" and then a year later, 1.6 million followers later and a book later, I have a brand. I was like, "Oh, my God, what's happened?"
HN: And it says comedian on the front of your book. How do you feel about being both now a teacher and a social media star and a comedian?
SA: Do you know what? I think I've always been all three. I mean, less so a social media star. I would say comedian and teacher, definitely. If you ask any of my pupils, they would say yeah. I mean, the jokes that are in I'm Rich, You're Poor the book, and my voice is so in there. I've given the chapter, the first introduction, to a couple of my pupils. I was just like, "Read it, tell me what you think." And they've gone, "You sound exactly like you sound in real life. It's like I'm hearing your voice." So, I think the comedian's always been there. I'm the fart at the funeral.
HN: [Laughs]
SA: I am that teacher where I'm always cracking jokes at the most awkward moments. So, something will happen and we'll get told off and I'll walk out and I'll be like, "Oh, my God, we got told." And everyone's like, "Shabaz, not right now," you know what I mean? I don't take anything seriously. I think the kids know that as well. So, I'll poke fun. When they're writing, that's usually really funny when they're doing like silent work, I get really awkward. I'm like, "This is really awkward.” I’ll make noises. And they're like, "You are the teacher. Like, how are you making the noises?"
So, social media, it's still an odd one because I still don't consider myself like social media famous. I just don't have it in me to be like – imposter syndrome maybe. I'm still the same person, making people laugh.
HN: Did the kids' reactions change to you? Did they become better behaved or anything once you became big on social media?
SA: A hundred percent. I like to think I have brilliant behaviour management, but really it's a social media thing. Like, nobody wants to annoy the social media teacher. Nobody wants a video made about them. Not that I ever would, but in their mind, they think, "Oh, God, can you imagine he makes a video about me." I think they've gotten over it though. The novelty’s wore off. Now they're like, “We know.” And a lot of my friends and family hear the jokes. A lot of my friends and family have bought it, they bought I'm Rich, You're Poor because they're like, "I'll support you." But realistically they're like, "Yeah, we've already heard those jokes a million times before." The kids are like the same. They're like, "Yeah, you're still our science teacher that gives us detention." So, the novelty’s wore off definitely for them.
HN: And what is your favourite type of social media awfulness to call out?
SA: My favourite type has got to be the ice cubes. I love it. And do you know what? It's really crazy because I've become a critic of them. So, now if you don't make it the right way, I'm like, “What are you doing? That's not how you're supposed to do it. The glitter's supposed to go in first and then the water...." And I'm thinking I have this out-of-body moment where I'm like, "What have I become?"
Yeah, those are my favourite videos. And the restocking thing. Everybody has that sort of one wanting to see something be perfectly organised even if we don't have the time to do it. I think some of the ones that are like wild where people spend ridiculous amounts of money or make other people feel inadequate, whether they're travelling so much, or parenting ones. Those ones make me feel slightly uncomfortable. But the ice ones, I mean, I think we'd all do it if we had the time.
HN: What would be your go-to shape and flavour, colour?
SA: The rose. Those rose glittery ones. My god. Imagine having a red drink with red glitter in it and red... Yeah. So, those or like those really big, cubey ones. Although those are awful because you don't get any drink.
HN: Also, like, what glasses?
SA: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. So, yeah, I think the rosie ones.
HN: In the book, you say that consumerism and social media have come together to create a monster. So, I wondered if you could describe what that monster is, or if you prefer, you're welcome to draw how you envision that monster?
SA: I'd say in my head I see it as someone holding a big phone up. And I just see loads of arms with various different things. That's how I see the monster. And I think the monster itself is “have more, do more, be more.” I think that's what it is. So, it's this constant chaining out of, like, "we can never have enough." There's a new trend that comes along and you have to have it. There's a new way of living. That's why I broke it down into chapters, because there was so much to cover. So, like, fashion is, “Wear this and feel like this when you are wearing this, and if you don't wear this, you are awful.” You know, food, food which is something that we should all have access to. It's like, “Eat this way, don't eat that way.” You can scroll and you can find five people saying, "Eat eggs, don't eat eggs. You should eat some eggs. You shouldn't eat a lot of eggs." And which one is it? You know what I mean? So, I think consumerism, as well about this idea of buying into everything. It's just so wild.
And I think we already felt the pressures, and I was pre-social media. Before internet I feel like there was pressure. You felt it in your school environment, especially. You know, that girl that got the new pencil case, the boy that had the Pokémons or whatever. But now imagine you have access to, really, 8 billion people, if they all had mobiles, to then tell you what you don't have is not right and you are inadequate because you don't have it. So, I think I feel like the book's like a shield. Or is it sword? And that sword is going to slay the monster, I hope. Not fully slay it but chop a few arms off, if I can say that.
HN: And you have your Povvo Gang, your community on social media. What, in your view, does being a Povvo really mean?
SA: I think the word has changed so much. I think being a Povvo, like I grew up and I didn't grow up with a lot. And people used to use it as a way to describe people without anything. So, it was always like, "Oh, she's povvo, she can't come on that school trip." I saw it being used in such a negative way. And it's really funny because it's been reclaimed. It really has, because if you now walk down the street and you shout Povvo, someone's gonna go, "Do you watch him as well? I love those videos." And it's crazy because I kind of spun it in a way where people are wearing tops that say “Povvo” on them. That's crazy, isn't it? People are walking around going, "Yeah, I'm a Povvo. I'm proud Povvo."
I think for me the idea of being a Povvo, it's someone that understands that the internet can be a wild place. And it's not just about money, it's about the performance of the internet and the performance that people put on. And once you understand that it's just a performance, because I've got a lot of people that follow me that have money and that's not the problem. It's not having money, it's what you do with it. And a lot of people that follow me are sick of seeing people show off about money. You might have it or you might not have it, and you're just sick of seeing either money showing off or holidays or bodies or food. So, I think being a Povvo is someone that just understands that it's a monster and we need to do something about it. Everyone's welcome, doesn't matter what. I love it because there's no niche. It's literally anyone. I've got celebrity Povvos. I've got Povvo Povvos. From all walks of life. And it's just nice that we can be proud of being it and not ashamed of not having what everyone else has.
HN: You've mentioned food a couple of times. So, what is the weirdest rich person thing you've seen with food on the internet?
SA: So many. I mean, that chapter was one that was hard to cut down and that's why I talk about food so much, because other things you can sort of understand. I mean, I don't understand, but I sort of can see why people would show off about my brand-new car, my holiday. But having food, which is such a necessity. Because the rest we don't need, but we need food. But the wildest thing, I'd say someone getting a cheese toasty for like £317, for a cheese toasty. Or £25,000 on a pudding. Jeff Bezos himself could give me a billion and I still would not spend £25,000. I just couldn't believe it.
HN: More than a few pounds on a cheese toasty is madness.
SA: Yeah. I'm not spending more than £1.50 on a cheese toasty. And if I have to when I come down south, I'm like, "You kid. £3.50? I'm not having it. Unheat it and put it back in the freezer. I'm not having that." So, it blows my mind. And that chapter, I mean, I should just bring out a food guide, like an entire book on just food.
HN: You talk about beauty standards in the book as well. You've got your beauty chapter, and obviously we hear about what beauty standards are like for women a lot. But what do you think that social media has done to male beauty standards?
SA: It's definitely bigger. I think growing up, I saw a lot of the female beauty standards, and I've always had female friends. I've grown up around a lot of strong females, and seeing magazines and things like that. I don't think men compared themselves to magazines. Like, no one compared themselves to Brad Pitt and went, "Oh, my god, I need to be him.” You might have done, but people were like, "Yeah, we get it." Social media shows you an everyday person living their best life. So, I have teenage boys who are 14 years old going to the gym because they need a six-pack by the age of like 16. They need to be a millionaire by the age of 21.
And it's not just money, it's that level of body image has massively affected young people. I've seen it massively. And even for myself, there's so much more pressure now on a male to look a certain type of way. You just are not seeing a variety of body images. And even beauty standards, when I talk about skin color, we are not seeing a representation. I mean, I'm an Asian male, there was already lack of representation, and the fact that social media is even open to everybody else, yet we're still seeing the same people being churned out.
I'm seeing the same people I saw growing up who I compared myself to and wanted to be like, now being churned out social media being the everyday person. And that's wild because on TV we just know they're on TV. I watch Love Island. You know that they're just on Love Island. But watching something like social media where you're just scrolling and someone's going, "Come follow me. This is a day in my life." And they've got this perfect life, this six-pack abs and perfect skin and perfect hair and teeth and nails. And you're like, "Why can't I have that?" And that's what's really scary, and it worries me more than anything about young people growing up in that world.
HN: What do you think it's done to the gender norms?
SA: I feel like with gender norms at the moment there is a lot of people that are saying men should be men and women should be women. And I think that comes from because there's so much empowerment. That's why I just don't want it in my book to feel like “internet bad.” You know what I mean? I'm on social media telling people don't be on social media. That's just wild in itself. It's not that. It's saying that there's so much good on there. And I think that is a big thing on the internet. The empowerment that women have on there is making a lot of men feel that, "What do I do now? Because I was a breadwinner, so what do I do now?" And then you've got the people that are going, "Men need to go back to their old ways. They need to provide for women because, well, what do you do if a woman can do everything you can do?" The gender norms have changed massively. What does it mean to be a man anymore? What does it mean to be a woman, apart from your anatomy? We no longer have “men need to wear this and men need to do that” because everybody's just doing anything. And I think that's empowering. Let everybody just live and do what they want to do.
HN: What's your own social media feed look like? Because obviously you are calling out all this stuff. So, when you are scrolling, what are you seeing? You let Instagram suggest stuff to you? Do you turn that off?
SA: I get a lot of my content from the Povvo Gang. So, they do a lot of the work. Sometimes when I have to do the work it really pains me. I'm like, "Oh, I've gotten so used to somebody else doing the work." I think I watch a lot of, for some reason, spiritual quotes. I have a lot of, like, "Grab life by the wings, run in the wind." I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I should do that today. I'm going to wake up and run in the woods bare feet." Believe it or not, I think my feed doesn't really have a lot of the stuff I talk about, but I think it's because I always click “not interested,” because you can do that, you can click “not interested.” But I still see it. It's because it's everywhere, isn't it? Most of my feed is just spiritual quotes, food, really.
HN: Are you bookmarking them? Is that why it keeps giving you the—
SA: Possibly. I think I like it because I'm like, "Oh yeah, that's very spiritual." So, I like it and more come up. Movie-related stuff because I love movies, and I'd say usually comedy, funny people and funny comedy, and like those videos when the soldiers come home and everyone's crying. I watched so many of them. There's all these trends that come up on the internet where it's mindless stuff where they've putting bottles – I don’t know if you've seen that bottle thing where it is a bunch of different colored bottles and these kids can't see them and they put one on and then they have to match up the color on the other side. I can watch that for 40 minutes. I've just sat there like, "Oh, he’s got it. Oh, he's got it." And that's wild. That's my favourite video.
HN: So, you fall down the trend rabbit holes?
SA: I can do, yeah. I can do. I think if I see something I like, then that's the algorithm though, isn't it? You see something you like, you like it once. But TikTok have a good thing because you can refresh your feed so it'll get rid of all this stuff. But then sometimes I miss the old stuff, so go searching for it. But I've done a lot of comparing, and I fell down this hole of like comparing myself to other people and I had to have a minute where I just literally woke up and I was like, "What are you doing? You are being the person you are fighting against. You are comparing." I watched people do stuff and I was like, "Why am I not doing that? Why am I not getting these opportunities? How come I don't get to travel more?” And I thought, "Whoa.” I had to take a step back. I picked the book up, give myself a whack on the head and I was like, "Wake up." Because it's so easy to do, isn't it? It's just so easy to fall into that trap.
HN: Yeah. So, for you, was it more about the achievement thing where you were comparing yourself first?
SA: Yeah, I mean I think subconsciously you do. I think everybody still does. That's why I'm Rich is so good because it's not about curing social media. So, a lot of people think I'm going to slay the beast. And it's not that. It's once you know it exists, you know it exists. The impact it has on you is reduced. So, it's always going to be there. My book's coming out on the 26th of March. I'm not saying that all of a sudden all these influencers are going to go, "I'm not making videos anymore. I'm done." It's the case of the impact it has on you, the individual person. Once you read it and you understand it, and that's what it's done with me, is once I see it happening, I'm like, "Oh, my God.” I can reflect and go, “I'm not letting that happen to me." But it's more mainly success, when you see other people, and I sometimes compare myself. I'm like, "How come I'm not doing that?" And then I go, "But that's not my journey. You have your own path."
I've been able to do that through the book and through learning about that. And I always call it like Dorothy when she goes to the Wizard of Oz and the Wizard isn't that scary. Once she knows that, everything else is okay, isn't it? So, that's a guess what that is. Uncloaking it and then going, "Nah, I can enjoy it for what it is. Entertainment."
HN: And you're writing about people who social media is a business for them? Is it that to you yet?
SA: No, I'm still having really a lot of fun with it. I have a management and I feel like they would love to be able to monetise what I do. I just don't give them a chance to because I always just do what I want. And they'd be like, "Have you tried doing..." I'm like, "No, I would rather just stay in bed because that means I've got to get out and film stuff." I wouldn't say it's a business yet. I'd say I want to provide stuff to people. So, I think you can make it business as long as you're giving something back. And I think that's the good thing about business. I think a lot of these creators are creating a business but not, what are you providing back to the consumer? A business is a transaction. So, for me, if I'm doing a brand deal, then at the same time am I providing you entertainment? Are you laughing at the video? Are you finding it funny? And at the same time I'm getting paid.
I think that feels more comfortable, as opposed to me going, "Hey guys, buy this brand-new thing that you can't afford. You can't afford to pay your rent, but how about you buy this brand-new diamond necklace?" Where's the transaction there? I think it could be a business if I felt that there was a back and forth and my Povvo Gang were getting something from it. I think I'd feel like, you know, like a lifetime supply of Heinz beans. If I could get them to sponsor me [laughs].
HN: That'd be a good one. I love that one.
SA: Come on. I love beans. I put beans on everything. So, yes.
HN: One of the things that we see on social media as well – kind of comes with the ice – is the perfect kitchen, is the perfect house. I say “perfect” in an inverted comma. So, what would you say is the difference between the kind of rich person house and the Povvo home?
SA: I think the Povvo home feels lived in. The Povvo home has life. And if you look at a rich person house, whatever that means, it just feels soulless. When you look at these ice videos, for example, these restocking videos, everything else is out the way. It's almost like they moved everything on this side of the camera and then filmed this immaculate kitchen. Where's the leftover food? Where is the utensils you're actually using? Where's your toaster, where's your kettle? This minimalism idea is not minimalism. It’s basically just saying that you can have more, but don't show it off. But you are showing off because you're showing minimalism.
I do think a rich person house feels soulless. It does. It doesn't have life in it. And that trend is trickling down to the Povvos. It is trickling down to us. It's trickling down to this idea that having too much is almost tacky. And I don't think it is. Having four white walls in a house really is mental asylum. Not full of life. So, I wouldn't want a rich person house. I could tell you that now. I want a big house, but not rich person house. Big house full of stuff. Every cupboard filled.
HN: I remember when I was a teenager, I always wished my mom would be a bit tidier because she always had stuff all over the kitchen table and like food and things. I thought, "I'm never gonna... when I grow up, my house is gonna be..." No, I'm exactly like my mom, because there's stuff everywhere.
SA: Yeah, because when you get home, who's got the time to get home, unpack everything neatly and put it – I mean my suitcase from three days ago is still unpacked on the floor of my bedroom. I ain't putting it away to film. And that's why I love filming from bed because you got one angle. Who knows what's on that side? I really do feel for them because in order to create a little ice video, you've got to then redo everything. Or unless they just have a room where it's the studio set up. They must have that. So, there's no life in them.
HN: And how did you find narrating the audiobook?
SA: So much fun. I loved narrating it. I feel like the book's got my voice. Everyone that's had it and that's read it has said to me, "It's like you're talking to me." But I think the audiobook, I mean five days it took me to record this book and I was exhausted by the end of it. But it felt like a conversation. And I love that. Because it's so accessible to a lot of people. And so many people message me saying, “Look, you know, I've visual difficulties, I'm dyslexic or I can't read.” And the fact that they can just listen to me just chatting to them and it feels like a chat. I personally could not listen to my voice for five hours. I mean, possibly I could, I do all the time. I listen to my voice 24 hours. But there's a lot of people that genuinely, it was so in demand, incredibly in demand. There was possibly thousands of comments of like, "Are you doing audiobook. Is there an audiobook?” And I was like, "Yes, I'm gonna do an audiobook." "But are you voicing the audiobook?" I was like, "Yes, I'm gonna voice my own book. Not getting Stephen Fry to do it. I'm doing it myself." So yeah, it was so much fun.
HN: Did you go off script?
SA: A lot. Yeah. I never stick to a script. That's why whenever I go anywhere with my management, they're like, "What are you doing?" They're in the back of the room. They're like, "Why are you saying that?" Because I do not stick to a script. I can't. And in the book, there's so many moments where I'd laugh at my own jokes. That's crazy. I put a video up the other day and they went, "It's really funny that you're laughing at your own jokes." I laugh at my own videos sometimes. Because sometimes I say things and I watch them back and I'm like, "When did I say that?" Or somebody says in the comment, they repeat something I said, and I'm going, "When did I say that?" And then I'll watch it back. I'm like, "What is wrong with you?"
So, the audiobook was very reminiscent that it was just me talking. And then there's certain moments where I'd say something and I'd laugh at it and I was like, "Leave it in. Don't cut it out. Leave it in." So, I'm hoping they have left it in. I felt so sorry for the guy that was recording, though. Honestly. I was like, "Sorry, let's start again. Sorry, let's start again.” So, he was an absolute trooper. I gave him a little acknowledgement in the audio files also, because he was brilliant.
HN: What's his name?
SA: Nile. Yeah, such a good guy.
HN: Very nice. And is there any one thing you hope will stick with people from this book?
SA: A hundred percent. I want social media to be social again. I want people just to appreciate what they have and aspire for more. There's nothing wrong with aspiring for more. We all want more out of life, but not at the detriment to yourself. I want people to – you asked me for one thing, I'm giving you 10. But the main thing is to pick the book up, read it and then see social media for what it is and then walk away as well. Know that it is just performance and it is just entertainment. And that's the biggest thing.
I think once people can read, understand, I feel like people's perceptions will change and the way they look at videos, they'll be able to laugh at these things and not feel so bad about it. And also I want young people to read. I really want young people to read and be inspired. I'm from a small town in the north and from an Asian background, working-class background. For me to have a book, I just want somebody to feel inspired to write a book. I know so many of my kids that are wonderful, write some beautiful books or like written work but would never feel like they could do it. So, listen, I can do it from my bed, so I'm sure you can do it.
HN: Amazing. Thank you, Shabaz, so much.
SA: Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it.
HN: Thanks for listening to Audible Sessions. If you enjoyed this and you want to hear more, search Audible Sessions on the Audible website or on the app. I'm Rich, You're Poor, written and narrated by Shabaz Ali, published by DK, is available to download on Audible now.
